I get that it could be very great. currently I have the magician's ring, another staff to add +1DC to will saves, I am an arcanist so that's a natural +2DC to the save. plus azata have a superpower that forces enemies to roll TWICE. with persistant spell they'll roll FOUR times. if I'll add to that expended arsenal(illusion) assuming it indeed stacks I'll get another +5 to DC for all illusion saving throws. culminating in a bloody +8DC TO ALL ILLUSION SAVING THROWS, and forcing enemies to roll FOUR TIMES, besides that.

HOWEVER all illusion spells force the target to roll twice, either would dispell the effect. the other illusion spells have nothing to do with casters, even though displacement is epic it's better on fighters. but casters have it anyways. what the hell is even going on with phantasmal petrification? will the spell not work if the enemy succeeds at either one of the saves????!! the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ 1d3 wisdom damage is not worth mentioning. the real ♥♥♥♥ thing is that those saves target different attributes, like: "oh, your fortitude sucks? well, let me roll you a d4 saving throw for will to see if you negate this weak effect? wow, that's bad too. you don't? oh, fall asleep and take no damage this round. nothing serious. wait, someone has negated it so it gives you another chance with a +4 to the save. you did it! good job~".

why is this so underpowered and bloody debuffed. It's hard to calculate chances with 2 saving throws and persist, I have no idea how to go about it with four. you basically launch the spell and 'hope for the best' knowing the best won't happen.
and don't get me started on shadow spells. they don't even seem to work regardless of what you're doing. tb it's such a cool concept but it's ruined.

At higher levels most of ur spells are 80% real. With mythic shadows ur spells are 20%more real.


Weird and that phantasmal assasin thingie. Consistently kills... Everything on the screen for me on core.

The wisdom damage can kill ppl and thry can be knocked down it also makes it harder for them to save vs spells

Why do they suck? Well mostly because those can be used against you as well. And we dont want the players to feel sad, now do we?
If you look at spells in general in DnD and other tabletop rpg's you will notice a trend. With each new edition of the rules, the spells get more and more neutered. Finger of death used to be save or die, so was disintegrate and so on, now it's save or dmg. And it's not just spells either.
The more popular rpg systems have gone very care bearish. I guess the soy boys can't take their characters dying very well, and might need a safe space and counseling after, or whatever *shrugs*

Some spell schools just aren't as good here as they'd be otherwise. Illusion and Divination are the best examples of this. Both are rather rudimentary in their combat application, but game breakingly OP otherwise. Divination especially. Imagine just being able to divine Powerball or Eurojackpot. Illusion at least has Shadow Evo / Weird. Enchantment is also quite finnicky. Even with Undead and Serpentine Arcana, there are simply "Mind Immune" enemies. Come to think, a feat of the type "ignore Immunity: Mind" should probably exist. Ascendant Enchantment or whatever.

Originally posted by darkholyPL:

Why do they suck? Well mostly because those can be used against you as well. And we dont want the players to feel sad, now do we?
If you look at spells in general in DnD and other tabletop rpg's you will notice a trend. With each new edition of the rules, the spells get more and more neutered. Finger of death used to be save or die, so was disintegrate and so on, now it's save or dmg. And it's not just spells either.
The more popular rpg systems have gone very care bearish. I guess the soy boys can't take their characters dying very well, and might need a safe space and counseling after, or whatever *shrugs*

it's really ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. especially when you've got spells like 'ressurection'. people shouldn't be bothered by death for a while.

Must save a will check to get a debuff to will check

but you could as well rolled the dice twice with any spell who makes a will check.