So, the legend is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥... So I finally loaded the branching path where the mc goes the legend route, I honestly believed iomadae to be a hypocrite for wanting me to get rid of powers that we're not mine while she clings and a handful of other God's I can name drop cling to godhoods that weren't theirs to begin with.

Her defense? She went through trails and tribulations to gain her power while mine aren't from my own natural ability, yeah because FIGHTING A WHOLE CRUSADE, Surviving the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ abyss, surviving being betrayed, being abandoned by her own damn herald I might had, can't be viewed as trials and tribulations as to whether or not I'm deserving of the power I have. Trials aren't just for whether or not you can get the power you know. Through the whole "path walked" the sad part is I found myself agreeing more with areelu than anyone or the so called the "good goddess" ever said, in fact areelu actually made some sound and logical arguments, while all you get from the opposition? Power evil! Bad power! Not your power!

But despite all of that, do you know what the biggest EF you for me was? Where does it say that before the mc was ever experimented on by areelu that he had mythic human level capabilities?

Now correct me if I'm wrong since it's been a while, but some years ago I remember reading that in dnd the average person usually gets around level 3-4 maybe 5. Just reaching levels like 12-13 is a heroic feat just the fact that we the player would role characters, even with horrible stats put us about the average person in these fantasy world. Now I'm only assuming that things are similar with pathfinders but the fact that the mc can go level 40 doesn't have ish to do with his own natural abilities and once we gave up the power we should have fallen back down to just being able to reach level 20.

So either way unless you expect me to believe mc was a heroic character capable of reaching level 40 naturally, but that removal of the natural mortal limiter never once showed up in any other path...yeah it's all bs.

You can't argue that it doesn't show up because because he has this other power because again that's not his power and no where in the story does it say this power weakens or hampers his own natural ability if anything it should strengthen them at best, work along side it at worse.

I'm.also not buying that the little affliction that is hurting his soul is also not buying that as an excuse because it's not hampering any of his other natural abilities. Yeah there is no sound reasoning to believe that the legend is the commanders own natural ability and not just another power that's, "not his and should not have it."

I honestly believed iomadae to be a hypocrite

She would rather outright kill/murder demons that choose to not fight. I find her dangious and a threat that only serves to encourage anger and fear which leads to monsters being what they are as a result.

She's worse then a hypocrite. She has good intentions and doesn't even realize she's cearting what she fears. Unlike Ember who seeks to understand without the knowing better attitude. Which is why Ember can get rullers of hell to consider things. Even if they might be in denial about it.

"Gods are like mortals." Is what Ember states. She's right. If there's so many judgemental fools with mortals then why would it be different with gods? so as much as I dislike Imodae, it also adds a sense of immersion.

Funny thing is I actually respect Regill more. Sure, he's got a "knowing best" stance and is scared of what he views as chaos, but he also considers the other side of the fence and remains civil without the knowing best attitude even if the player is chaotic. I have to respect that. The dwarf (forgot the name right now) also shows he appreciates how the player supports him without the "knowing best" attitude. Giving the demons a choice when you stand against them late in the game is showing that they have a choice. They can coose to fight. They can choose to walk away without doing so.

So when Imodae lectured me for giving them that choice, I took it as a sign of her being a judgemental control freak that violates choice itself. Why would a demon ever change if they're just going to be murdered anyway? That only serves to encourage them to remain violent and blodothirsty. It's counter productive in the long run. Also might explain why so many crusades failed. Keep making someone a target and they'll push back. Doesn't matter who started it. This is when I was doing Desna and then gold dragon. I was being the "good" guy.

The queen sends me to hell on my own without an army. After fighting her battles.

It makes a demon run very tempting. It actually makes me cosnider why a hellknight would be a hellknight too. Despite the fact that I disagree with there iron fisted "one way of law" approch. If the gods can't set a "understanding" example instead of a "judgemental" one when mortals set a better example already then what's the point?

What's worth keeping in mind is that this could be by design. Maybe it's what they intend. So the mortals seek to ascend. Maybe not with all of them of course, but a few perhaps. Test and challenge and see if challenged back. In some ways this is what the rullers of hell and the gods do with each other. They always seek to challenge each other. A bit like, say, Jack Sparrow and barbossa. Making sure they each know the situation they're in and trying to make the best of it. So Iomadae at least has that going for her. She's the kind of god that will only consider your viewpoint if you really really corner her and put her in a position where she sees the harm of her own actions. Because she's so high up on her high horse.

Even nocturnal is more considirate then that (proven with Ember). And she's a demon ruler of hell. And a liar that secret keeper to boot. But at least she's considerate. This is likely intended. Good intentions cause people to become blind to their own actions. Monsters make fewer excuses.

I both love it and hate it. I hate it because, hypocrocsy and contradictions. But I love it because this is so "real". It's somehing that, in a sense, is meant to be disliked. But for the right reasons. This further adds contrast to the other side of the fence and getting the player to consider that more. The game doesn't really go "There's one right way" (though some companions are more flawed then others). It goes "What's the full story. Try to find out."

That said, sometimes stabbing in the dark with the crusader sections is a bit too much fumbling. Learning the map on the first playthrough when doing the secret ending is a chore. XD

Girls been a goddess for like 120 years cut her some slack, its not like gods become omni potent and are able to understand the exact consequences of everything... She is 100% right you were given powers by a EVIL source and that is reason enough to be worried. Is her gaining powers from the star stone completely different? not really she is getting her power from an outside source, but from her POV the star stone wasnt Demons giving her power to be used as a pawn... Of which are protag is definitely a pawn to Nocticula and Areelu goals.... And to the idea that she is "dangerous? Are you kidding me? All gods and there followers have the potential to be dangerous and are dangerous, she is not unique to this and neither are her followers... There are much bigger threats than some recent deity of justice.

while you give up on that juicy mythic power on legend path, you are still left with two souls, one mortal soul can reach at best level 20 and so two together are 40, simple magic

and i also don't get the hate against iomedae, most of her time as a goddess she spend on watching over the crusade against the demons, so mistrusting demons should be pretty much expected from her

Originally posted by Gigabyte:

Girls been a goddess for like 120 years cut her some slack, its not like gods become omni potent and are able to understand the exact consequences of everything...

That's omnipresence not omnipotence.
I won't cut her ♥♥♥♥, with age comes wisdom, even more so when you are a damn deity who sits among other deities.

Originally posted by Gigabyte:

She is 100% right you were given powers by a EVIL source and that is reason enough to be worried.

No it actually isn't, if she was so concerned then she should've when the power first awakened, and everyone was calling the mc her blessing. She wasn't worried at all while the mc fought her war for her and did in what 3-4 years what all her little faithful couldn't do in a hundred years.

Originally posted by Gigabyte:

If she was concerned then she should've appeared when her chosen queen banished the mc into abyss. No she wasn't worried at until she realized that power could push the mc further than what should've been possible. She saw another soldier, a weapon that could be wielded against her enemies and had no problem letting it be weilded in her name.

Is her gaining powers from the star stone completely different? not really she is getting her power from an outside source, but from her POV the star stone wasnt Demons giving her power to be used as a pawn...

Except when called out, she defended and played up her obtaining her power with an holier than though attitude while ignoring every trial the mc went through while possessing it and ignoring how it was used against those same demons that was supposedly manipulating the mc. Hell regill, her own hell knight couldn't even fulling agree with one of the goddess he served on the point about his power.

Originally posted by Gigabyte:

Of which are protag is definitely a pawn to Nocticula and Areelu goals....

You mean just like how clerics, paladins and inquisitors are pawns of the gods they serve? Both sides are pawns, just one tries to pretend they aren't.

Originally posted by Conquista:

while you give up on that juicy mythic power on legend path, you are still left with two souls, one mortal soul can reach at best level 20 and so two together are 40, simple magic

Where does it say you still have two souls, because the whole process of getting rid of he mythic power is literally about ripping your literal soul apart and expelling the part that isn't you...

Also edit, even if you did THATS STILL NOT YOUR POWER so my point still stands.

and i also don't get the hate against iomedae

She's a godess of justice. Judgement breeds fear. Fear breeds anger.

It's that "looking down" viewpoint she has. Like you're just a monster to be destroyed or tossed aside. This is why.

It's also why I respect Regill when he sacrifices his own rank and title even if you as the player are chaotic. A difference of viewpoint AND trusting you? Protecting you at his own expense? That gets respect points. I've never seen Iomedae do that. I also don't take stock in what I just "hear" because rumors are so often half truths or lies. The game makes this clear a number of times.

Do we really know enough about Iamodae other then the fact her good intentions can sometimes backfire? That's about ALL I know about her. She'd probably listen to reason if challenged enough. She remains civil with nocturnal for example. They're mirrors of each other. Look closely though. Each is seeing what they hate in each other. Because even if they have different "styles" they're more alike then they care to admit.

It's somewhat subtle. But both keep you in the dark. Until they dictate the time is right. That little detail might go unnoticed by most.

I just prefer to ignore Iomedae's part in the Legend path and think of it as if the character triumphed and "broke his chains". This is a perfect path for Conans and Siths. Io has NOTHING to look for there, that entire story, especially Demon -> Legend, is 1000% better WITHOUT her interference. Besides, isn't she the leader of Empyreal Host(or however it's called), the Army of Heaven? This is yet another point why Asmodeus is better. He won't preach ♥♥♥♥ and reject a powerful new ally(or the achievment of his goals, even if he were to fail). Iomedae...le /sigh.

Why is she LG again?

Originally posted by synnworld:

Originally posted by Conquista:

while you give up on that juicy mythic power on legend path, you are still left with two souls, one mortal soul can reach at best level 20 and so two together are 40, simple magic

Where does it say you still have two souls, because the whole process of getting rid of he mythic power is literally about ripping your literal soul apart and expelling the part that isn't you...

Also edit, even if you did THATS STILL NOT YOUR POWER so my point still stands.

whats your point? i don't mean it as an insult, i thought you asked yourself if the mc can achieve level 40 natural, he can't
but if you had something else than its really difficult for me to understand exactly what you mean with all that rambling in your initial post

Originally posted by Taramafor:

and i also don't get the hate against iomedae

She's a godess of justice. Judgement breeds fear. Fear breeds anger.

...

It's somewhat subtle. But both keep you in the dark. Until they dictate the time is right. That little detail might go unnoticed by most.

did you play kingmaker? in pathfinder mortals being used as pawns by higher beings is pretty much an everyday occurence

did you play kingmaker? in pathfinder mortals being used as pawns by higher beings is pretty much an everyday occurence

Poticians being control freaks is an every day occurance.

Doesn't mean people like it. You wondered why people don't like Iomadae. I explaiend my reasons, which you have not commented on.

Kingmaker also isn't the best example as a counter argument. The game has the player standing against a god that entertains himself at your own expense. I actually find the way it's done somewhat flawed. Bit too fairy tale? I mean, defeating with just words and roll endings? I'm all for talking my way out of situations but "I reject thee" and then "Ok then"?

Both games suffer from the "late game sudden happenings". Where things happen with less reasons and sense. Before the late game (act 5 in this case) it's fine. But then it's all rather crammed in. As if they're in a rush to explain everything. If it had been more spread out then this would have been fine. Instead it all appears out of nowhere all in one go.

Just slip them in at a different location with a more valid reason for it. Like "They're currently occupied over at that location and oversee the crusades. go meet them." Give a reason for her to be there then "Hi. Here's how things are. Bye."

Originally posted by Conquista:

Originally posted by synnworld:

Where does it say you still have two souls, because the whole process of getting rid of he mythic power is literally about ripping your literal soul apart and expelling the part that isn't you...

Also edit, even if you did THATS STILL NOT YOUR POWER so my point still stands.

whats your point? i don't mean it as an insult, i thought you asked yourself if the mc can achieve level 40 natural, he can't
but if you had something else than its really difficult for me to understand exactly what you mean with all that rambling in your initial post

What? My initial post doesn't have a single question in it so I don't get how you thought I was asking anything.

My point? Thought it was clear as day since it's written in the title and that "ramble" as you put it explain why I think that.

Originally posted by Taramafor:

Kingmaker also isn't the best example as a counter argument. The game has the player standing against a god that entertains himself at your own expense. I actually find the way it's done somewhat flawed. Bit too fairy tale? I mean, defeating with just words and roll endings? I'm all for talking my way out of situations but "I reject thee" and then "Ok then"?

You lost me with this, defeat with just words? You didn't defeat the latern king with just words you literally had to overcome a curse, put your real back together again and overpower a mythic level being at level 20... With no mythic powers. Which actually makes the commander look weak since he needed mythic powers to fight demons weaker than a feylord.

The fact a mortal can beat a good at any level falls under the realms of fairytale to begin with also. Honestly km is a perfect example of what your talking about because it's the literal textbook definition of deity tier beings manipulating mortals.

My thoughts exactly @OP, Iomedae is a big fat hypocrite who talks of "only the one who goes through trials to earn their power is worthy of them", while utterly and conveniently ignoring everything the MC has actually gone through before reaching Act 5, ignoring the fact that Power or no Power, he's the only one in more than a hundred years who's ever made any real progress against the Worldwound, and even survived being banished to the Abyss by the so-called Queen whose incompetence as a military leader is only surpassed by her jealousy over the MC's achievements and glory.

And besides, she also utterly ignores the fact that the *source* of my power is irrelevant to the extreme... power in and of itself isn't good or bad, righteous or evil... it's the one who wields the power that makes those decisions.

Originally posted by Taramafor:

and i also don't get the hate against iomedae

She's a godess of justice. Judgement breeds fear. Fear breeds anger.

I'd have said she's a goddess of Law, and every Lawful outsider is an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, so...

Shed be ok with embers being burned alive and huldrun still has her blessing... Despite being a foolish mass murderer.

Iomedae is her own brand of evil.

The only person who makes sense in this game is Ember... *someone insert ember's quote bout those fools*

successful people or people that have become gods do not want competition. They cling to the ladder with both hands so they can kick those below them off with their feet.